Not "Hum..."! It's "Hai!"
One of the bad experiences that I was told I could experience in Japan was about people getting angry at you for making mistakes with Japanese honorific language. Especially because since I look Japanese (because of my descendence), people would expect me to use the language properly.
Some explanations, the Japanese honorific language has various degrees. One should select which one to use according to one's own social status and their listerners'. So, for example, a student is supposed to use polite forms when addressing a professor and use the humble forms when talking about himself to him.
Although some parts of the honorific languages aren't heard often and many Japanese youngsters have problems using that language nowadays, the fact that one speaks in different ways to someone superior (目上) or inferior (目下) in social ranking than oneself is still part of the Japanese culture.
By social ranking, one of the main criteria is seniority. Elder people are usually regarded as "higher-ranked". Within organizations, it's usually determined by position or years inside the organization (while quite often the two factors are linked). More details can be found in many internet sites, such as this.
Back to the subject, although the warning, I spent almost a whole year in Himeji without having any trouble in that aspect... a fact that amazed me somewhat, since I spoke to professors, elderly, students, etc. and I'm sure to have made mistakes quite often. Sometimes, the listener didn't even know that I am not Japanese (foreigners tend to be forgiven for such slips more easily).
In the end, my best guess is that being a foreigner student (two status that help people to be more forgiving), older than most students I've met (remember the seniority rule) and being in the Kansai area (people here usually are more informal and friendly than, for example, in Kanto) helped me to avoid problems with that.
Well, that invencibility was broken.
Not that I have problems with that. It was taking too long to happen anyway, and I want to be able to use honorifics better (the only problem is that I find it difficult to become friendly with someone having to talk using formal language...). I'm just a little irritated with what caused that problem.
During an aikido training, "kouhai" ("junior", or less graduated members) usually go after a "senpai" ("senior", or more graduated members) to practice. So, I went after a "senpai". As he was explaining the technique, he suddenly became angry with me...
What I did wrong?!
The answer: during the explanation, I was asserting that I was following what he was saying with sounds like "hum...", "ah...", "aham...". I know that the standard Japanese word for that kind of situation is "hai", and that's the one he wanted me to use.
What?! I was expecting complaints against using wrong words, using plain form when I was supposed to use polite form... but that!?!?
The problem is that I don't "decide" what sound to say... it's mostly something unconscious. Besides, as I have to shift between many languages often, I use those "hum" rather than any specific sound because they're understandable in any language.
Saying "hai" during a conversation in Portuguese would be strange at least, and while saying "ok" would be fine in any language I know, the frequency that showing acknowledgment is needed in Japanese is different... too much for me to use "ok" always.
In the end, he called my attention many times becasue I "shouldn't address a senpai in such a disrespectful manner", although I was being careful to, apart of my acknowledgment remarks, try to keep my language formal.
To his defense, he also said it'd be ok to use those marks outside the dojo, but that wasn't admissible during training... (so I guess he's usually that severe only during trainings)
I was told to correct my way of speaking, but the detail that he complained about isn't easy to change. Besides, I don't even think it's worth it...
Using the "gaijin escape" ("I'm no Japanese, so I'm not supposed to follow your rules") wouldn't make me any better, though. In fact, that would make me even more authoritary than him ("That's my way! Live with it!"), especially because I'm on his territory.
Still, I don't think its something worth trying to change. As "I can't be everything to everyone", I don't see any meaning in changing that, since he's the only one who complained about that so far.
That remings me of a situation during a judo tourneament back in Brazil. As competitors were being called to check their weight, one of my friends was called, and he asnwered:
"Here!!"
One of the sensei (who had the reputation of being strict) answered:
"It's not 'here'!! It's 'hai, sensei'!"
That's something we laughed at for a long time... after. Even so, I can concede more in this case because:
1- Answering to a call is something of "higher importance" and easier to measure the words used.
2- It was a sensei calling.
I know that reason number 2 has some "gaijin escape" in it... and my personal opinion of not liking the "senpai-kouhai" relationships much. Especially in the part where "senpai/kōhai relationships generally last for as long as the two people concerned stay in contact, even if the original context in which the senpai was senior is no longer relevant" (from Wikipedia). I like to get more informal with people as we're getting closer... even though it may be my Brazilian background talking.
But, again, my Brazilian background is part of me. And as I don't comply completely with Brazilian culture, I don't comply completely with Japanese culture either... Only because I'm in Japan, doesn't mean that I have to concede everytime... I only have to find the correct balance.
Well, I've not met that senpai again. Which is good because I still haven't decided if I'm going to play his game or be stubborn. Two good opinions from friends were
1- Try to reason with him. It may not work, but understanding each other's reasons may help both parties.
2- Talk only in English with him. There's also some "gaijin escape" in it, but at least in English I can avoid problems with my acknowledgment remarks (because they're allowed in English).
I'm open to more suggestions.
Ah, and I'm still going to the aikido practice. No hard feelings against the group. Only that awkward situation with one member... one senpai.
Some explanations, the Japanese honorific language has various degrees. One should select which one to use according to one's own social status and their listerners'. So, for example, a student is supposed to use polite forms when addressing a professor and use the humble forms when talking about himself to him.
Although some parts of the honorific languages aren't heard often and many Japanese youngsters have problems using that language nowadays, the fact that one speaks in different ways to someone superior (目上) or inferior (目下) in social ranking than oneself is still part of the Japanese culture.
By social ranking, one of the main criteria is seniority. Elder people are usually regarded as "higher-ranked". Within organizations, it's usually determined by position or years inside the organization (while quite often the two factors are linked). More details can be found in many internet sites, such as this.
Back to the subject, although the warning, I spent almost a whole year in Himeji without having any trouble in that aspect... a fact that amazed me somewhat, since I spoke to professors, elderly, students, etc. and I'm sure to have made mistakes quite often. Sometimes, the listener didn't even know that I am not Japanese (foreigners tend to be forgiven for such slips more easily).
In the end, my best guess is that being a foreigner student (two status that help people to be more forgiving), older than most students I've met (remember the seniority rule) and being in the Kansai area (people here usually are more informal and friendly than, for example, in Kanto) helped me to avoid problems with that.
Well, that invencibility was broken.
Not that I have problems with that. It was taking too long to happen anyway, and I want to be able to use honorifics better (the only problem is that I find it difficult to become friendly with someone having to talk using formal language...). I'm just a little irritated with what caused that problem.
During an aikido training, "kouhai" ("junior", or less graduated members) usually go after a "senpai" ("senior", or more graduated members) to practice. So, I went after a "senpai". As he was explaining the technique, he suddenly became angry with me...
What I did wrong?!
The answer: during the explanation, I was asserting that I was following what he was saying with sounds like "hum...", "ah...", "aham...". I know that the standard Japanese word for that kind of situation is "hai", and that's the one he wanted me to use.
What?! I was expecting complaints against using wrong words, using plain form when I was supposed to use polite form... but that!?!?
The problem is that I don't "decide" what sound to say... it's mostly something unconscious. Besides, as I have to shift between many languages often, I use those "hum" rather than any specific sound because they're understandable in any language.
Saying "hai" during a conversation in Portuguese would be strange at least, and while saying "ok" would be fine in any language I know, the frequency that showing acknowledgment is needed in Japanese is different... too much for me to use "ok" always.
In the end, he called my attention many times becasue I "shouldn't address a senpai in such a disrespectful manner", although I was being careful to, apart of my acknowledgment remarks, try to keep my language formal.
To his defense, he also said it'd be ok to use those marks outside the dojo, but that wasn't admissible during training... (so I guess he's usually that severe only during trainings)
I was told to correct my way of speaking, but the detail that he complained about isn't easy to change. Besides, I don't even think it's worth it...
Using the "gaijin escape" ("I'm no Japanese, so I'm not supposed to follow your rules") wouldn't make me any better, though. In fact, that would make me even more authoritary than him ("That's my way! Live with it!"), especially because I'm on his territory.
Still, I don't think its something worth trying to change. As "I can't be everything to everyone", I don't see any meaning in changing that, since he's the only one who complained about that so far.
That remings me of a situation during a judo tourneament back in Brazil. As competitors were being called to check their weight, one of my friends was called, and he asnwered:
"Here!!"
One of the sensei (who had the reputation of being strict) answered:
"It's not 'here'!! It's 'hai, sensei'!"
That's something we laughed at for a long time... after. Even so, I can concede more in this case because:
1- Answering to a call is something of "higher importance" and easier to measure the words used.
2- It was a sensei calling.
I know that reason number 2 has some "gaijin escape" in it... and my personal opinion of not liking the "senpai-kouhai" relationships much. Especially in the part where "senpai/kōhai relationships generally last for as long as the two people concerned stay in contact, even if the original context in which the senpai was senior is no longer relevant" (from Wikipedia). I like to get more informal with people as we're getting closer... even though it may be my Brazilian background talking.
But, again, my Brazilian background is part of me. And as I don't comply completely with Brazilian culture, I don't comply completely with Japanese culture either... Only because I'm in Japan, doesn't mean that I have to concede everytime... I only have to find the correct balance.
Well, I've not met that senpai again. Which is good because I still haven't decided if I'm going to play his game or be stubborn. Two good opinions from friends were
1- Try to reason with him. It may not work, but understanding each other's reasons may help both parties.
2- Talk only in English with him. There's also some "gaijin escape" in it, but at least in English I can avoid problems with my acknowledgment remarks (because they're allowed in English).
I'm open to more suggestions.
Ah, and I'm still going to the aikido practice. No hard feelings against the group. Only that awkward situation with one member... one senpai.
2 comments:
Hum, acho que o seu "a-han" realmente não é o mais apropriado num doujo. Consigo até imaginar todos se virando na sua direção com olhos esbugalhados, hehe.
Eu não tenho problemas com o "hai", pelo contrário, me acho até japonês demais algumas vezes. Contudo, volte e meia me enrolo com o "daijoubu". Eu quero dizer "pode deixar", "sem problemas", mas mtas vezes recebo um olhar de espanto e cara de dúvida como resposta, o que não é bom.
Acho que é o tipo de coisa que só não-japoneses entendem, como muitos dos exemplos usados por nós estrangeiros nas aulas de japonês, que deixam os professores totalmente desorientados, sem conseguir ligar os pontos.
Por fim, minha sugestão: "Em Roma faça como os romanos." Claro que há limites pra isso, mas quando se tratar de coisas relativamente pequenas, não custa ceder, respeitar e adaptar-se à cultura local. Assim fica mais fácil de fugir da imagem de gaijin deturpador da ordem...
inté
Nao sao todos... na verdade foi um cara so que implicou com isso ate agora...hehe.
A dificuldade de se mudar isso esta no fato que eh uma coisa meio inconsciente... Mas isso depende de cada um. Como no seu exemplo, as pessoas se complicam em coisas diferentes...
E nao somos obrigados a concordar em tudo na cultura de um lugar. Eu pessoalmente sou contra o "jeitinho brasileiro", especialmente em certas ocasioes.
Posso ate tentar mudar meu "a-han". Minha experiencia no judo diz mesmo que temos que ser um pouco mais respeitosos no dojo (apesar de que, mesmo tendo praticado atres marciais por boa parte da minha vida, inclusive no Japao, nunca tive um problema como esse ate essa vez). So espero que o cidadao nao queria que eu mantenha o mesmo nivel numa conversa normal... Nesse caso eu prefiro ser um "gaijin deturpador da ordem"...
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